Kelsea Ballerini Gets Real About Being Subject to Change, Going From Dibs to Divorce and Beyond, and Channeling Shania

Kelsea Ballerini walks into the penthouse suite of a West Hollywood hotel bearing a big smile, a full bottle of wine and two glasses, and this is immediately a good sign for an interview. She has a lot to toast, having just released a well-reviewed album, “Subject to Change,” and being about to play a venue she’s dreamed of headlining, L.A.’s Greek Theatre. Ballerini is coming off a previous album cycle in which she had a No. 2 country hit with “Hole in the Bottle” and a No. 1 with “Half of My Hometown,” which picked up a couple of CMA Awards. But the wine may not be for purely celebratory purposes. “Interviews make me nervous,” she admits, settling in and pouring.

That’s probably true more now than when she was promoting her previous three albums. There’s the fact that she recently revealed she was getting divorced, something that didn’t go public until she had already done her first round of press for the new album. No one would mistake “Subject to Change” for a purely confessional album at this stage in her life — not with a first single like the upbeat, crush-celebrating “Heartfirst,” or a girls-night-out anthem like “You’re Drunk, Go Home,” with guests Kelly Clarkson and Carly Pearce. But there’s practically a whole interview’s worth of material just in the album’s autobiographical high point, “Doin’ My Best,” which covers everything from her most regretted tweets to marital counseling to the cessation of her friendship with one-time duet partner Halsey. It’s an interesting time to be, and to talk about being Kelsea Ballerini, sharing a little about fresh personal pain while still putting on the most ebullient show in country and making that feel honest, too.

What was clear in her Greek show was that if, man, you feel like seeing and hearing a woman navigate modern country, Ballerini is a worthy successor to her idol, Shania Twain, in many ways. That’s not just because she can rock a catsuit, among other costume changes, but because of her ability to embody pure pop and pure Nashville and not even have you thinking about all the gradations in-between, at least not till you sit down for a conversation like this.

And while the singer doesn’t devote a lot of time in her show to taking the audience through the tougher stuff she may be going through, Ballerini did keep it real when she got to the sing-along ballad that closes her new album, “What I Have,” changing a key line in the chorus from “I got a roof over my head, I got a warm body in bed” to “I got myself in my own bed.” Dibs on self-ownership, there.

(The following interview has been edited for space and clarity.)

You were just on with “CBS Mornings” with Anthony Mason, who is a champion of country music, and he talked with you very gently about what you’re going through personally…

I adore him. We had a really in-depth conversation about my book when it came out, and I had never met him before. In the book I talked about an eating disorder, and witnessing a school shooting when I was in high school, and my parents divorcing and a ton of stuff. I was very nervous about talking about it, and he handled it with such kid gloves. So I was like, all right, I can do it again.

Well, here is something that Anthony Mason didn’t ask. It has been weighing heavy on my mind, because it seems no one else has asked you this. I feel like it’s the elephant in the room…

Oh, God. I’m nervous.

It has to do with a song on your new album, “I Can’t Help Myself.” It seems like such a deliberate Shania homage. Or am I just imagining that?

[Relieved.] Of course it was! I’ve never done a modulation before. I’ve never done a song in two keys. That’s a very ‘90s country thing. But then, obviously the whole record is inspired by ‘90s music, specifically women in country. And so we wrote in the modulation and we were trying to figure out a way for the pre-chorus to lift into it. And we were like, “Guys, how do we not obviously step on Shania and Mutt and what they did, but pay homage to what they did?” So we took every page out of their book. And Shania’s my queen. Everyone knows it. My God, what an incredible artist. And the more I get to know her, the more I’m like, “Of course you’re Shania Twain. You couldn’t be cooler.”

You did a salute to her on the “ACM Honors” show not too long ago, including wearing her dress from one of her seminal videos.

When they asked me to honor her, I was like, “How do we do this bigger?” And so the dress happened, but then also, I was like, “If I’m gonna do ‘Man! I Feel Like a Woman,’ I want her Vegas dancers shirtless on the stage of the Ryman. That’s what she did for country — she pushed every boundary, and that needs to be recognized. Because people still are like [about Ballerini’s performance] “Oh my God, they didn’t have shirts on.” I’m like, “Yeah, and they didn’t in the ‘90s either. Calm down!”

You’ve said you and Shania had a long, personal, late-night talk after that filming.

Yeah, I’ve known her for a couple years now, and we’ve had a really beautiful mentor -mentee relationship. This conversation was before the news came out about what I’m going through [with the divorce], but I was experiencing it and I needed advice. So we had a big celebration dinner with both of our teams and gave cheers for her award, and then I sat on her hotel room balcony for a couple of hours and she just was really honest and open and warm and lovely. Right now, I have fewer artist friendships than I’ve ever had, but the ones that I do have are actual genuine friendships. I put her in that category.

And Shania’s advice to you was not “Take 15 years off, like I did, kid”?

No, it wasn’t. Her advice was, “You owe people music, and that’s it.”

It’s a generally pretty upbeat album, although very reflective and with different moods and themes on it. But just to address maybe the elephant in the room, it’s not a divorce album per se. You’re friends with Carly Pearce, who appears on the album, and she went all-out and made a divorce album. But if you were going through hard times, did that make you want to sort of escape to writing some of the more cheerful stuff? It’s not a dour album.

Mm-hmm. I have two answers to this. I would say it’s the most upbeat, boppy — as the kids say — and breezy record, sonically, I’ve ever made. It also has the most meat on the bones of anything that I’ve ever put out. And I think it depends on what you want to listen for, but you’ll find it. It’s not a divorce album. And if I had to label it as anything, I’d label it as a processing album. I think you hear more of that self-discovery and more of that unraveling on this record than I maybe even realized, to be honest with you, while I was making it.

This album covers a lot of styles or subgenres of country, but fairly subtly and unjarringly. It’s not like, “Oh, she just had mandolins and now there’s electronic sounds” — even though that is happening.  Maybe that’s one advantage of being on your fourth album, versus very early in a career where people are always wondering, “Are you country or are you crossing over?” Maybe you’re past the point of facing those questions all the time…

Uh-uh. [Laughs.] No, not yet. I just think my reaction to those questions has changed. I used to be so offended that people said I wasn’t country. It hurt my feelings, because that’s how much I identify as a country artist, that it hurt my feelings that people felt so polarized by my music that they had to go to the internet or write articles telling me that I wasn’t what I have wanted to be my whole life. And then I just realized that there’s enough people that think I am that I have a career, and that’s who I care about and make music for… And so I just don’t worry too much about it now.

It feels like people give women a harder time about moving back and forth across boundaries.

Of course they do.

The album has a surprisingly easy flow to it, even when you have a couple songs that are pretty hardcore country and then go into songs that probably would fit in the pop camp for most people who would just hear it with the naked ear.

I credit a lot of that to (co-producer-writers) Julian (Bunetta) and Shane (McAnally) I knew that on this album I wanted to work with producers that were gonna do the whole record, because I didn’t do that last time. I’ve always A&R-ed my own records, and I wanted help this time — I wanted one or two people that were gonna really challenge me on stuff. And they did. They’re my friends and brothers, and so they were able to really challenge my ideas on what I wanted this record to be and sound like. I think the reason that a song like (the very country) “If You Go Down, I’m Going Down Too” and (more pop) “I Guess They Call It Falling” can live on the same record is because, A, I wrote them both, and B, they streamlined the sound. We had the same musicians in the studio for the whole recording process, and they had their hands on the whole thing. I think that’s the throughline.

A name that pops up a lot in the credits is Alyssa Vanderheym, not just as a co-writer but at times as an engineer and even on one track as a producer. You’ve spoken about wanting to use more women as collaborators in the studio.

I wrote eight songs out of 15 with her… I’ve never worked with a female producer before. … She’s a crucial cornerstone of this record. Listen, I’ve had to really recalibrate what it is to be like a woman supporting women. I think it’s twofold. I think on an artist front, I have less artist friends than I’ve ever had, but I have really good relationships with my artist friends — they’re my sweatpants friends, and it’s nurtured off camera, away from red carpets, and it’s proven to be way more healthy and honest for me. And then the other side of that is, yeah, I think the other way to support women in music is the ones that are not on camera. My team is full of women. My record has more women collaborators on it probably than ever. I’m mindful when I’m hiring people now. I want to be more inclusive — because it’s only a blind spot until it’s not, and then you need to hold yourself accountable. So it’s a twofold lesson that I’ve learned.

There’s a little bit of a female solidarity theme on this album at times, whether it’s the song you do with Carly and Kelly Clarkson, “You’re Drunk, Go Home,” or “If You Go Down (I’m Goin’ Down Too).”

Yeah. I just don’t know what I would do without my friends. I’m an only child, and I’ve always wanted a sister my whole life. And especially in the season of my life, which — it’s not a secret — is a bit chaotic and light and dark at the same time, the way that they’ve shown up has been like sisters, like blood. And so I wanted to have a song that that honored them, but also had wit and had sass. Because I remember when we wrote “Hole in the Bottle,” I was like, “This is too silly. There’s no way this is gonna make the record. It’s too silly.” And I’m so glad it did, because it unlocked my personality on stage. I don’t always just want to be singing mid-tempos; I like being funny and quirky, and so I really enjoyed what that became on stage. And on this record I wanted to have the sentiment of the depth of what my friends mean to me, but wrap it up in a giddy tone.

I love Carly. She had one off day in months and flew up to my show in Chicago and surprised the crowd, and then afterwards, again, not for the camera, we sat down and actually caught up. And we’ve seen each other through failed singles and seen each other through No. 1s and so much else — like divorce, for both of us now. And when they call her name for female vocalist of the year, I’m happy for her. And I mean that. And Kelly, oh my God. I would literally die for her. Push me in front of a train for Kelly Clarkson. She’s always been one of my heroes and, just as life would have it, we’ve crossed paths so many times. I’ve opened for her on tour and I sat in her seat for “The Voice.” The one thing we haven’t done is collaborate. I asked Carly first, and when she signed on, I was like, “Who would bring something completely different? Kelly.” I texted her in the morning and she did vocals that night. Total badass.

How do you feel to present this album and be on tour during this season of your life? Because obviously most performers want to be upbeat and cheerful. But you did put up an Instagram video where you were very honest and frankly downbeat about the divorce, when that became public. It seems silly that you have to think about things like timing  — like, when will the public learn about this, as opposed to the album launch. But how did you feel about having that news come out so close to the album release?

It’s been… hmm… interesting. Obviously, to make a big life decision like that, by the time it’s newsworthy, a lot’s already happened to get to that place. So, I’m like obviously still grieving. But I’m also healing now. That’s the point where I’m at. But I don’t think I realized how many people cared like that. And that’s been pretty difficult, to show up and want to talk about a record that I love, and end up doing divorce press, you know? It’s been a learning lesson, and I’m trying to show up honestly and vulnerably, but also protect a very active situation that’s happening in my life, in a matter of the heart.

I’ve always been pretty open with everyone about everything. And I think this is the first time in my life where I’m starting to realize that maybe I need to have better boundaries about things that are more personal, because it has been hard. Like, for example, I play Chicago, I get a call that I have to get all the personal stuff out of my house, I red-eye to Nashville on my one day off, I pack up my house, I fly to Denver, I play a show, and no one knows. It’s very real, what’s going on. I just feel like I’m trying to compartmentalize, while also reworking how much of me I’m willing to share moving forward. … It’s a push and pull. Definitely it’s a relationship that I’m assessing right now, of how much, moving forward in my life, am I willing to share? Because it feels invasive, and then I realize that it’s my own fault that it is invasive.

So do you have regrets about having put up such a vulnerable Instagram video?

Oh no, I’m glad I did that. I put out a song that week, and it was a song that was slated to come out that week and I couldn’t move it. It was also the one weekend that I had before promo started, where it was like my last weekend to break down. I drove to the beach with my three closest girls and I was a mess, you know? And I was also promoting a song and… I felt like a sociopath (not revealing both sides). I want people to remember that I’m a human.

But I’m extremely happy and grateful and proud of this record. And when I show up happy, I mean it. I’m celebrating right now. My life is beautiful. I love this album. I’m playing the Greek tomorrow! I don’t want those feelings to be overshadowed by the fact that I’m also going through a divorce. And it is really sad and is really hard — but those two things are true at the same time. If I’m only showing one and not the other, then that’s not real or true or what’s actually happening. It’s a balance that I have not mastered yet. And will I ever? Probably not. But it’s one that I’m really trying my best at.

When fans come to a show and you seem ready to party, you want them to believe that that’s the real you, too.

Yeah. Because I’ve done a lot of work on myself the last couple of years. I’ve really taken inventory of the things that I want to work on and the things that I’m really proud of, and I think you hear a lot of that on this record. But the thing that I’m navigating right now is, like, I think we live in a culture where sadness is commendable, because it’s relatable. And happiness is something that people kind of don’t want to see anymore from people. And one thing that I’m personally working on is just, when I’m happy, doing it completely — like, uninhibited — and when I’m sad, feeling that as well, the fullness of that. But I think for a long time I felt guilty to be happy.

That’s interesting to hear — that as happy as you’ve seemed as a public personality, that’s the side you have the most trouble embracing.

I mean, welcome to therapy with me, Kelsea Ballerini.

This is not a purely confessional album. But you do have one song that’s a whole mini-memoir unto itself, “Doin’ My Best.” You had the desire to document everything that was happening in a moment in time with that?

We were close to done with the album, and I was listening to board tapes from the first week of tracking, listening to “Muscle Memory” and “You’re Drunk, Go Home” — knowing that they were staples on the record, but I’m more or less playing a character in these songs. Like, this is not where I’m at in my life right now. And I wrote this book of poetry last year, and it unlocked this piece of me where I was like: What if I just keep going there? What if I’m that open? And I had this realization that I didn’t have a song that was quite like that on the album that represented that growth.

And so that’s when I asked Alyssa, “Hey, do you have a track?” And I went down to the ocean and I just didword vomit and took ownership for everything that I have felt that has been messy or noticeable or cringy. That’s a song that’s been one that everyone’s obviously asked me about, but it’s also been one that the fans scream when they sing it back to me at the shows. Because that’s all we’re in control of as people is showing up, rolling up our sleeves and doing our best. And if at the end of the day you can lay your head on the pillow and go, “Did I do my best today? Yes,” then you should sleep well. And to be able to take ownership of all these things that people have publicly watched me kind of figure out, it’s like standing in your power a little bit.

You refer to a difficult relationship with a fellow artist in that song, talking about “track 4” on your previous album and losing the friendship with the artist who appeared with you on that song (Halsey) after it came out.

People have tried to make it into this shade fest. That’s not it at all. It’s truly just me saying also what I was talking about earlier — like, what does it mean to be a woman supporting a woman? And then how do you also protect that while having a working relationship? Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. And it’s messy, and it’s one of the things that I’ve tried to figure out. It had nothing to do with wanting to shade. It was just me acknowledging that everyone was like, “Oh my God, they had this song as friends and all this stuff and then all of a sudden they weren’t.” [Pauses, laughs.] I did not answer that well! I’m gonna regret that,

You have lines in “Doin’ My Best” about deleting Twitter off your phone, after some backlash to a comment you made about Morgan Wallen and Nashville, when that was breaking news. You have a Twitter account, but somebody must run it for you now?

Yeah. I got off of it the day after the tweet. It just wasn’t healthy for me anymore. I also realize that maybe that’s one of the social apps where it’s easy to breed negativity. Even on my TikTok and my Instagram, I have words that are filtered that are just triggering to me. Like, I’m tired of people asking if I’m pregnant. I’m tired of people asking who I voted for. I’m tired of all of it, you know? So there are words that I just omit so I can still have a presence on social media that feels OK for my mental health. And Twitter just was not one of those places for me.

So you’re singing “Doin’ My Best” live and fans are screaming it back at you?

We end the show with “Doin’ My Best,” and everyone was like, “Kelsea, end the show with a hit.” And I was like, “No, no, no, no. We have to end the show with a minute-long screaming cathartic therapy session where we all just scream ‘I’m doing my best’ for a minute.” That’s the end of the show. It feels important right now.

You’re feeling the love from the fans from this album, generally, you’d say?

I’m feeling love from the fans. And I’m feeling critical love, which — I’ve gotta be honest — I have not really gotten much of in my career, because I’m the sparkly girl that sings “Dibs.” … The fans like it, and it seems like bigger-picture people like it too. I feel like I did something right. Thank God.

You mentioned the “sparkly girl who sings ‘Dibs’” image  — have you felt like there’s something to overcome or evolve from after starting so young?

There has. I put so much weight on being a role model, because I was the most impressionable preteen and teenager. Anything that the artists and people that I loved in pop culture were doing, I wanted to do it, and so I realized that now I’m that for some people. I used to think that meant I can’t misstep or misspeak and I had to be in a glass box, basically. I’ve really just recalibrated that now, because if I was a mom and I had a daughter, I would want her to be surrounded by people in her real life and the music she listens to that are people that are showing up as they are, and showing that in the best and most pure way that they feel they can.

And so that’s even why the tone… And I don’t mean my vocal tone, I mean my tone of lyric, my tone of voice on this album — it sounds like a 28-year-old wrote it. Because I let myself talk on this record like I talk to my friends on a Friday with a glass of wine. I’m just not so worried anymore about saying something wrong. I’ve done that, and you learn from it and you keep going and you’re human. And I think when you take the fear away from that, to go to the whole theme of the record, the album is called “Subject to Change” because the idea is we’ve all been subject to change the last couple of years. And what if we take all the space that that fear takes up and just go: It’s inevitable. That’s how you become who you’re gonna be, and all that space that fear of change is taking up, I’m gonna use to enjoy the moment and enjoy my life, because it’s not gonna be the same tomorrow. It never is. But right now, this is real. This moment’s real. We’re drinking wine at this beautiful place in L.A. You know that’s gonna change. But right now, it’s wonderful.I think when you have that discovery — whenever you have it in life; I just had it recently — it allows for a lot more living to happen. True living.

So that’s something you’d say has changed for you since the “Kelsea” album a couple years ago?

Yeah. Oh my God. What hasn’t changed since the “Kelsea” album a couple years ago? Well, I still have a very cute dog.

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